CURRENT MILITARY BUILDINGS


Fortress


Watchtower


OLD VERSIONS


Fortress


ORIGINAL POST
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A thought I've had for RttR is to create new very S2-like graphics that RttR could optionally use instead of the original game graphics, thus making RttR "independent", giving player an option to use original S2 files instead of being dependant on them.

This kind of a project is a very slow and time consuming one, with so little people available for us, so a slow start is a good one. I've already made a new Greenland texture set, and for some good continuation Roman buildings is the first that comes to my mind, and there is some work already done here.

Fortress (the bottom rock & grass needs to be redrawn if to be distributed with RttR)



Watchtower



This Watchtower is a new building I drew today, I used Wikipedia's Castra article as a source of inspiration. Needs some further adjustments in color choices and such.

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Settlers II.net admin

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i really fell in love with the fortress
but not digging the watchtower try .. sorry

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Second version of the Watchtower, changes: bigger door, copied color scheme from original Watchtower, darker water, moved flag pole.



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Settlers II.net admin

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i like the wodden fortress, because it was an old settler graphic version,
but i'm against roman replacement graphics.

i like the original settler graphics to much. :(
(especially the roman and nubian building)

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>> My Youtube Channel <<

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Remember you can have the original S2 graphics, these graphics would only be distributed with RttR in case somebody doesn't have the original S2 files. So it would be just personal preference if you have S2.

I think this kind of "free open source graphics set" would really help RttR to get on it's feet instead of being a minor German project (which it largely is atm) :)


There is a lot that could be done for improving the installation process, making it really easy for anyone who wants to play, but that is a matter of another topic.

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Settlers II.net admin

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Good idea to have default graphics so we could be independent ;)
But i dont like the ground of the watchtower doesn't look like settlers, to detailed xD but nice idea, maybe it looks ingame better.

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I also like the idea and that tower ;)
made a minimal edit don't know if it a real improvement, just added some shadows.

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i cant see it, but please don't work with png-files

bmp is better i think...

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>> My Youtube Channel <<

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I said it before but I say it again lovely work.. Pity that this work is so time consuming and complicated otherwise we could create tons of new nations or perhaps sub factions to the current ones.

Actually I think JPG. is the best. You won't note any quality loss for such small pictures the human I isn't capable of doing so. bmp. compresses pictures not very well while jpg. pictures are always just some kb. large.

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JPG is BAD BAD BAD! It has compression artifacts that would be black in the game
because they won't fit in our palette. And a 100x100 pixel 8bit-bmp image would be
arund 10 kb. That's just nothing.
(counting my space - oh around 7 TB + 2 in the net that would be 966367641 images - YAY
nearly one billion images - happy painting xD)

Maybe GIF would be a good way to use. It can take our palette, has looseless
compression btw it is compressible.

And @ MERRI : Nice work, replacement grafics would be very cool.

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>> Du programmierst doch auch Perl, wie wärs denn mit einem
>> Verbesserungsvorschlag (kürzer, speicherschonender, gleiche
>> Funktionalität, ...)?

Kein Perl.

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BMP = Windows bitmap, not compressed in any way
GIF = lossless up to 256 color image format with animation capability
JPEG = lossy image compression intended for photos, lossy = does not save exact pixel information
PNG = lossless compressed image format, supports paletted & 16 million, and often smaller filesize than with GIF images, does not support animation

I don't really understand why anyone would like to use BMP. It wastes tons of space and about any graphics program since ~1998 supports PNG. If you need BMP then it shouldn't be any kind of a problem to convert an image. PNG is the image format for sharing lossless image data through internet.

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Settlers II.net admin

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yes of course it is a lossless compression...

but if you save a png-file with specific options (bit depth, dithering level) -> some colors of the picture changes

(this settings are in Paint.NET)

we are working with the settlers palette and changes of colors are not nice, i think ;)

where is the problem to save such little files in bmp format? if you want to have this graphics in the game it must be "bmp" anyway...

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>> My Youtube Channel <<

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In short: I save in PNG, it works fine for me, I share and give it for free common use.


<Massive Offtopic>

Don't blame the file format if a tool isn't meant for the job! I don't have much experience on Paint.NET, I only remember I tested it and didn't like it. What I've downloaded some of the BMP files on this forum they are often/always full color (16.7 million colors) and not paletted. This has lead me to think that RttR loads non-paletted BMP images and is hard written to understand certain color values to work a certain way. I haven't tried to use any graphics in RttR, because at this point I'm more interested in figuring out how the original game works and how I can modify it.

As for tools, I use Paint Shop Pro 7, and it retains the palette as it is. However when drawing new pixels it prefers using the first item in the palette that matches the same color. For this reason I made my own palette that has each color unique. This shouldn't matter when the images are loaded by palette color index (ie. ignoring the palette & their color values), but seeing that there have been problems with these files it looks like the actual color value is trusted more than the palette index, leading to problems with my graphics in RttR.

For the original S2 the palette index values are the thing to trust. For example I can save LBM files with whatever "incorrect" palette colors I want, but if the palette indexes are OK in the image then it displays correctly in S2. Even if we look at the game's files the texture files are saved with an incorrect palette (if compared to the palette used in-game). I actually save all my modified textures in PNG (with my palette) and then use Graphic Workshop 95 version 1.1y to convert the textures to LBM format S2 can read (and it still has the incorrect palette). Doing this is as simple as clicking a file, click a button, select LBM, and then I have both PNG & LBM in the same folder. So no problems here. Of course LBM is not the only file format used by S2, but when I start dealing with LST/IDX/DAT/BOB I'll probably output to/input from PNG.


As for my lack of testing things with RttR... partially things are like this because RttR isn't a non-German friendly project. You download a Windows installer, it is in German. This site is almost entirely in German. The domain is siedler25.org which is not friendly for international audience. Selecting English doesn't make the site English, it even breaks some things (inability to change avatar, can't start new threads...). Things like this don't make RttR an attractive project for non-Germans. So this is also why I prefer modding & figuring out the original S2 over working with RttR. But it doesn't prevent me from giving something S2-related for RttR if it is easy enough for me to do so. The new Greenland texture is made to work with S2, not with RttR, but it is kind of more useful thing for RttR. I made the other graphics mostly because I like drawing pixel graphics.

</Massive Offtopic>


Now if we could continue with the new Roman graphics topic instead of talking about the file formats all the time.

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Settlers II.net admin

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I love the idea! Also had that in the past but I'm not that good at creating settlers-II-like graphics.

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Yeah, if the graphics are drawn in 16-bit colour, then save the PNG in 16-bit colour - Then there is no dithering or depth reduction. PNG standard is either 24 or 32 bit (24-bit + 8-bit alpha channel) anyway; whereas Settlers 2 objects are only a 256 colour palette I think GIF would be fine - unless RttR does/will support more colours.

Why is this such a debated point anyway? Uploading/attaching the images as PNG is fine!

Like this very much Merri. But the concept of the Wooden Fortress doesn't really make sense to me, I wonder how it looks with a palette of stone colours ;)

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Regards, JonusC

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As far as I know RttR supports 24 bit palettes but I dont like to have new colors, therefore the charocal burner and the new race is still made with the original 256 clors ;) I just like that old style^^

and if merri would have finished all buildings he will attach them as one .lst ;) (I think^^)

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jonusc: PNG supports anything from 1-bit two color images to 32-bit alpha transparent images - what I have here is 8-bit images just like S2 images are :)

And yes, Wooden Fortress doesn't make that much sense. It looks great, but doesn't really fit in. For this reason I've had a look at Wikipedia's article on Castra, which tells about all the kinds of Roman forts & fortresses there are. Some of the photos give nice ideas! Current Watchtower design is based on the real thing.

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Settlers II.net admin

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If there will be replacement graphics I don't see the point in limiting them to the old palette.

Maybe some of you know OpenTTD - the 32bit graphics are quite popular. The gameplay is the good old one and the buildings are nearly the same style but "up-to-date".

RttR supports 24bit - so why not use it?

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I make all my buildings in the original palette cause I like that color ;)

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Zitat von Spike:

i like the original palette, too. i don't want to have unusual settler colors in the game :D

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>> My Youtube Channel <<

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That's good for the normal game. The old graphics should not be messed up with new ones.

But a complete new graphics set would be perfect to show what RttR can do!
So... when a complete graphics set is done I would prefer 24bit graphics.

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A problem with (possibly high resolution) 24/32-bit graphics is the amount of work it requires. OpenTTD is a comletely different beast, it (appears to have) vastly larger international following than the old Settlers has. I guess this is partly thanks to the nature of TTD's history, TTDPatch appeared very soon to improve the original game, and OpenTTD has been around 2003, first duplicating the behavior the game in C and later both taking TTDPatch ideas as well as adding features that weren't possible to do with TTDPatch.

Meanwhile the "classic Settlers" community hasn't been that alive: we have Widelands that is somewhat popular, but OpenTTD kind of project that RttR is has only been around since around 2005 and it has been largely German-only. There has been a great gap while there was no "true" continuation that TTD has had almost all the time since release.

So before we can even dream about any neat graphics we would need to have a larger community where most of the discussion would be in English, because having most of the important stuff discussed in German greatly limits the possibilities for a RttR community to grow.


Personally I prefer S2-like paletted graphics a lot. It is one of those things that makes the game attractive, and it is very hard to create graphics that mimic the 256 pixel art feeling, while being true color. For an example if you look at Widelands they do have high resolution graphics that have been modeled from 3D. And in my honest opinion the result is bad. I don't like the overall look of the project. Meanwhile OpenTTD's graphics are very good.

We also have to remember there is also The Settlers II: The Next Generation. It gives pretty graphics in true 3D. But it fails in looking like the original game, and it changed the game interface so that it doesn't feel like playing S2. I guess that is one of the reasons RttR exists?

Anyway. I'm not against a 24/32-bit graphics set, we just don't have the people, we don't have the resources. Oh, and it feels a bit odd saying "we" since I'm not truly a RttR developer, I'm still more of a S2 modder. But I support RttR as an idea and a project :)

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Settlers II.net admin

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Yes of course - the graphics should not look like rendered!
They should look like your watchtower for example (because it doesn't look like the settlers palette).

I reffered to

Zitat von Spike:

Long story short: They should look like your watchtower and using the settlers palette would not be necessary as long as they look a bit pixel art.

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Well i understand you stef but i think that if you would use 24 Bit u would also use Dome colors which S2 Never had. I also
agree with you that the watchtower doesnt Look like made in the S2 Palette but maybe its just the detailed style and the
Ground which is Not typical.

Where i absolutely agree with you Merri is that we should discuss in english ;) For that i tryed to use offen the Show english version

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Yes. Would be good to know if Merri's watchtower is in the palette.
However: I love this detailed style! And I also think that it would look fantastic ingame. Things like the water are not typical S2 and may be discussed to stay or leave.

I will modify the reply form in the forums and add buttons with all available BB-Codes like the [ eng ]-code.

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Oh sorry Merri for that massive off topic :-/

I ask me how your Tower,i really like it,would Look with a typical Ground or maybe instead of Blue water with Dirty Water
like in wasteland the normal Water. Maybe you could give us such a Version too? :)

I also imagine ingame settings for graphics so everyone could get rttr Fan made graphics and Set by himself which He/She
Wants to use - i really like that idea ;) could Pack all graphics in a file and then you could choose by yourself. But we Need
to Be Aware,later, that no One creates a staging Where you could See which building it will Be ;)

Hope that was Not to much ot for you :p

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Nope, those are still somewhat ontopic :)

Stef: the Watchtower is in palette

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Settlers II.net admin

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Zitat von Merri:

Wow... doesn't look like that.
The details are really amazing. Keep up the good work! I'm really looking forward to more of this graphics!

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Here is a little bit different kind of try, comparison to the original Watchtower as well:

. . . . .

A bridge over the moat. Still doesn't look fully right to my eye, but I'm quite tired right now anyway. Just trying some quick alternative options :)

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Settlers II.net admin

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Verry nice work Merry(i) but are you sure you got the right point/angle of view?

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>> Du programmierst doch auch Perl, wie wärs denn mit einem
>> Verbesserungsvorschlag (kürzer, speicherschonender, gleiche
>> Funktionalität, ...)?

Kein Perl.

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Now I know why it looks so wrong for me!
Merri you are using the wrong angle...



Edit: just what nastx said...

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I guess it is wrong only if you make it wrong :)

The game uses various ones...

Most buildings: 2 by 3 (what you call "right angle")


One side flat straight: Viking Fortress


2 by 2: Roman Watchtower


3 by 2: Roman Iron Smelter


So there is no one "right angle" the game is using. There are just some that the game uses more than others.

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Settlers II.net admin

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hmm you are right, strange... :D looked at so many buildings to compare the angle and everything. Maybe these buildings where made by an other guy than the others :D

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My guess is simpler: the same guy probably drew all of the buildings, but some buildings are older than the others. I guess there may be many more buildings made that have not been captured in any screenshots, but abandoned as they didn't meet the quality or requirements they wanted.

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Settlers II.net admin

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Unfinished Fortress:




More of a Roman style instead of the original S2's more medieval style. Also used a bit of something from Wooden Fortress. Which rises the question: should wood be abandoned for the most part?

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Settlers II.net admin

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For a roman style and a fast build fortress there is wood! But i think there was no combination of wooden gates and stone walls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudis_(stake)
http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrum

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>> Du programmierst doch auch Perl, wie wärs denn mit einem
>> Verbesserungsvorschlag (kürzer, speicherschonender, gleiche
>> Funktionalität, ...)?

Kein Perl.

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Still unfinished:



Hopefully no obvious mistakes... didn't have a sharp mind while doing this, only the rough idea from some picture for a gate.

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Settlers II.net admin

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looks very good, but i would get rid of the wooden gate in the background!

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>> Du programmierst doch auch Perl, wie wärs denn mit einem
>> Verbesserungsvorschlag (kürzer, speicherschonender, gleiche
>> Funktionalität, ...)?

Kein Perl.

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It isn't a wooden gate, it is a tower :D Will probably try changing it to the same stone and red roof as the rest of the building.

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Settlers II.net admin

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Didn't feel like drawing plants and stuff on top of the walls just yet. So this is the clean version :)

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Settlers II.net admin

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VERY nice (= Looks more roman than the original!

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>> Du programmierst doch auch Perl, wie wärs denn mit einem
>> Verbesserungsvorschlag (kürzer, speicherschonender, gleiche
>> Funktionalität, ...)?

Kein Perl.

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looks cool :D and is the tower in the back really in the middle of the wall?^^ doesnt look like he is at the opposite of the gate^^

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Any News on this? I love the idea, too bad there aren't many supporters - instead a "new people" is created…

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Well, in my eyes, we don't NEED them, therefore I prefer to create a new race - to play the game you need much more graphics than just buildings, the people, buttons etc.

But merri seems to be unactive at the moment :s

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Hello again! I really like the fortress! It is a Perfect replacement for the old one. Yours looks 100% Roman and not like
King Arthurs Castle camelot ;) is there a Way to get this amazing improvement?

Greetz, Touljo

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At the moment there is no playable version available. I'm on "recharging mode" so there isn't happening much anything. Kept myself busy for a few months for the most part so sometimes you need the rest :)

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Settlers II.net admin

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They look nice although I have the feeling that the Settlers II style is a little cartoonish and shrinking buildings, but still uses big doors and windows. The castle looks a little too tiny. Maybe you should set up a tuturial on how to draw buildings so that others can help you.

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That is actually something I was thinking about yesterday. I can write one for Paint Shop Pro 7, and possibly some other programs that have good pixel manipulation tools. Pixelart isn't that hard to do, but there are tons of tricks and little know-how that helps making graphics that look good.

You can see I was working based on a real life building. Fortress door needs to be made bigger, the shooting windows maybe as well. S2 doesn't have it's graphics in scale so I think it is OK to have some things in incorrect scale. But the door certainly needs to be made bigger.

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Settlers II.net admin

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I've now fixed Fortress proportions. Greater walls and a bigger door. That should be enough to make it look cartoony instead of being a miniature.

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Settlers II.net admin

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Looks great. For the head quarter I suggest a tent like structure like in the first roman mission of the original game. I mean why does civilization start with a big monument. That never made sense to me.

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That is more due to the game style mechanic. Later games (not necessarily in The Settlers series) improved upon the idea by allowing upgrades to the HQ building. With S2 that could mean more storage space. This would add a strategic element as while HQ is upgraded it wouldn't serve new resources. However Storehouses would also have to be limited. This is a matter for another thread though, I want to keep the replacement graphics true to the originals and this thread is for Roman replacements. When I get into drawing a HQ it'll be the biggest and greatest looking building.

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Settlers II.net admin

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Is there still any focus on making the game independant from the original game?
A standalone graphic set would be very nice for those who can't find their old game CD...

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Well, if we had some Devs, maybe, If the new race (Babylonians) would be added for testing (because I would use them as
default graphics). But, there are none, which also means, there wont be any replacement graphics.

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